Saturday, February 10, 2007

My Thoughts on Homosexuality.....關於同性戀... 同姓愛って話...

Post One of the Gay Trilogy series....
The front cover of a Men's magazine in China (one of those supposedly straight male lifestyle mags which actually target the gay male consumer but at the same time have to be discreet about it....however, judging from this cover (heavily hinting that the guy is aroused and masturbating) and numerous other ones i've seen, they don't seem to be hiding much at all!! More on these 'straight men hiding gay appeal mags' in my next post!

This is probably the most controversial post i have posted to date given the still sensitive topic of homosexuality for some people. I've posted about Homosexuality before as part of my continuing series on 'Homosexuality in Asia' and the 'Gay Korea Column' but the last time i posted was almost a year ago and never in such detail. But i think its time to post again about the subject given that its an area of my interest and the worldwide trend and fascination with 'gay and gay culture' in recent yrs, no doubt in part due to the film 'Brokeback Mountain'. There is also an undeniably clear trend and general consensus amongst societies across the globe that same-sex love should now be respected and tolerated and that past condemnation and discrimination against gay and lesbian men and women should no longer be allowed.

My personal belief is that most gay and lesbians are born that way which means that homosexuality is a natural occurence which happens not only in the human species but also the animal kingdom...it has been reported recently that 'gay penguins,dolphins, and other animals' exists by scientific studies which tend to indicate the natural occurence of homosexuality....of cos that is not to doubt the existence of straight people whom 'turn gay' as a result of environmental factors such as having been sexually abused by men in the past or being in an all-male environment for lengthy periods of time without access to sex with women (e.g. the prison and military)....however i believe that those whom are straight but 'turned gay' will change bck straight again when they are given the proper treatment (for those straight people whom have experienced sexual abuse or rape) or when access to sex with women becomes available (for those prison and military men). I, however, refuse to believe that naturally born gay people can somehow be 'turned straight' again....if it were that easy, then homosexuality would have been eradicated long ago with all the hedious inhumane 'electric shock' "treatment" ( i would classify that as torture really...)and systematic, intense, discrimination of the past....conditions which would have stamped out homosexuality if it were not a natural condition.
Gay Russian Magazine Cover...the guy is cute and sexy hey? Maybe the saying 'all the good men are either married or gay' is true after all? hahaha

A message for the right-wing conservative Christians and conservative parents of gay people:

Yes, homosexuality is not an ideal. It would have been better if the world didn't have homosexuals. The human body is simply not made out for sex between two members of the same sex, especially for two men. The anus is not the cleanest of areas to stick a di*k in i suppose and it doesn't have the elasticity of the vagina causing more pain and tearable as compared to the vagina.....BUT and this is an important BUT, we don't live in an ideal world....if the world was an ideal place and i had my way, men (this OBVIOUSLY includes straight men!!) wouldn't be as horny as they are now and straight men wouldn't watch nor read pornography, beat up their wives, like action movies and videogames where they compete to kill enemies (eg warcraft and other violent games which are so popular amongst the straight male population), people wouldn't read alcohol and get drunk and smoke all of which is bad for the body and there would be no wars and rape and murder...however we sadly do not live in such an ideal world. Of cos, some things which occur and seem impossible to stop cannot be tolerated just because they seem impossible to eradicate such as the rape of women, child abuse and paedophilia. It all comes down to where we are prepared to draw the line between what is tolerable and what is not. (please note that all i am asking for is tolerance not acceptance...we can learn to tolerate some stuff as acceptable and legal behaviour but it doesn't mean we have to accept it as encouragable behaviour or morally upright behaviour). I am thus proposing that the parents of gay children and conservative Christians tolerate gays and lesbians and not view it as condemnable behaviour that MUST be stamped out. it should fall within the category of 'tolerable behaviour' as opposed to the category of 'intolerable behaviour' such as rape and incest.


I mean u can even view homosexuality as the mildest form of disability akin to being blind, deaf, handicapped,etc and if we don't say 'lets try to make all those handicapped people normal', then why should we say 'lets try to make all gay people normal?' Of cos some will say as society is increasingly becoming more and more accepting and even celebrating gay and lesbian and gay culture, will this be actually 'encouraging' straight people to 'become gay' too?? Given that i already said i believe most people are born gay, i simply think its extremely simplistic and ignorant to think that simply celebrating gay culture, showing gay relationships on mainstream tv and movies and telling children that being gay is ok will 'turn straight people gay'....cos if anyone has given any thought on the matter, if it were indeed so easy to 'straight ppl into gay ppl' then how is it that with centuries upon centuries of suppression and extreme discrimination against gay ppl and with all mainstream culture and media showing only straight love, that gays have nevertheless continued to exist throughout human civilisation with even famous ppl like Alexander the Great and Oscar Wilde being gay??.....Clearly, if thousands of yrs of suppression and ignorance regarding homosexuality has not managed to 'turn' gay ppl straight then movies, parades and an environment supportive of gays and lesbians is certainly NOT going to turn straight ppl gay....give it a thought, it all makes simple sense...really.


Designer label frequented by gay men...u've got to admit gay men simply have more style and fashion sense on the whole as compared to straight men....look at this underwear, its so ooooo freakin delicious and sexy isn't it? Straight men should learn a thing or two from gay men when it comes to the dress sense department....i'm sure the girls would appreciate it ;)

A message for gay and lesbians:


First of all, for those ready to skin me alive for saying above that homosexuals are akin to disabled people and are undesirable, LET ME EXPLAIN. Its no use telling right-wing christians and conservatives about the virtues of anal sex and how great being gay is cos i personally think it WON'T work. You've got to persuade them using a form of mentality which they subscribe to. I of cos don't think being gay is bad and gay ppl are all disabled ppl lar...duh duh...haha...



Well, back to the topic. Nothing much for lesbians really cos i don't think there is much problem with lesbian relationships...haha...i can be a real 'right-wing' feminist so i think women-women love is not a problem actually...its already proven by at least some studies that the rate of HIV and STD infection amongst lesbian relationships is even lower than straight male-female relationships which shows that from a sexual point at least, lesbian sex ain't all that bad!


For the gay men, i do think there are a few problems. Firstly, i think there should not be that much bitching. I think the gay male culture of bitching about others is really not that healthy. Also, the constant obssession with having a great body and external beauty can be pretty superficial i think and i feel being gay should be much more than just having absolutely fabulous abs and calves....really the gay habit of asking for 'measurements' in chatrooms and MSN is pretty distasteful i think and reduces ppl to a set of numericals (for straight audiences, it is quite common for some gay men to ask ppl they dun really know their weight, height, chest size and 'length of manhood' on the internet)


Of cos then there is the gay saunas and having sex with random strangers u've just met at the gay club or gay bar like 2-3 hrs ago....one wonders why the HIV rate of gay men is so much higher than straight men when there is just so much more sex with strangers happening in the gay man's world...

if gay men want respect from society they will have to start earning it. And having group sex or random sex with strangers in saunas is not gonna earn respect from the public. I still remember vividly i was in Taiwan when the news rebroadcasted one of the big news of 2004 which was when police raided a 'gay homeparty' (轟趴) and found 93 gay men engaging in group sex...13 were later tested HIV positive and over half of all the 'participants' had STDs...the term 'homeparty' even entered into popular Taiwanese lingua after this incident (農安街轟趴事件)....i can always remember the cameras panning into a room FULL of naked men squatting and hiding their faces...the first time i had seen so many men naked in a room before...there have been many more TV news reports of 'gay homeparties' since then...certainly NOT good publicity for gay men whom want so much for society to accept them...

I think many gay men use the excuse that straight 'rules' don't apply to gay relationships or gay men in general but i think thats TOTAL BULLSHIT to put it quite frankly. All straight conventions such as being faithful to ur partner, not having random sex with strangers should also apply to gay men. Given that its always advocated that gay love deserves the same respect as straight love and is equal to straight love, then all the responsiblities which come with straight love should also be equally applied to gay love. You simply just can't ask for the same rights without being willing to adhere to the same responsibilities as straight relationships.

Further, I've come to realise that gay relationships don't seem to last long with many friends and online diaries of gay men showing that there seems to be a 'three month curse' for gay male relationships. This basically means gay male couples generally split within three mths. Of cos many last longer, but on the whole most seem to last a mere 3 mths...and of those which last 2,3,4, and more yrs...there is a web of cheating, sleeping around with other men whilst the boyfriend is away...u know....sigh....sometimes when u think about the state of gay men and their relationships, u do wonder whether the Christian condemnation of the 'gay lifestyle' rings any truth to it? I really wonder sometimes....

So basically, although i think the feelings for the same sex is just too strong to change gay men and women straight, i'm not totally supportive of the gay community as seen by my critique of the gay male culture above....so i think conservatives should learn to accept gay and lesbians and their right to love whilst at the same time, gay men should learn to accept the right of christians and others to think that homosexuality is tolerable but undesirable as well as start changing some behaviour which is unacceptable....

I would like to address 1 more point which i frequently hear from Christians whom oppose homosexuality. Its if we accept homosexuality now, whats next? Incest, sex with animals, paedophilia? Well, i won't even deal with the point on sex with animals cos its so disrespectful and absurd that seriously if those christians and other ppl can't differentiate b/w a human being having sex with another human being (who happens to be of the same sex) and with an animal (a TOTALLY DIFFERENT species) then goodluck to them!!!

As to incest, again, its a totally different thing cos its mating with ur own family member whilst homosexuality is about with other ppl...thus if it were a gay man having sex with his own brother or uncle (eeewwww.....)then i would be totally opposed to it...

The paedophilia point is the hardest to rebutt i admit but seriously i think children can't be taken to know whom they like and want to have sex with whereas 2 consenting adults of the same sex do know what they want and shouldn't be prohibited from having sex with each other simply cos they're the same sex.


And remember, homosexuality isn't about sex alone. Its about love.....a love that dares not speak its name simply because its different from the majority, different from what is socially accepted as 'normal'. The love between two men and two women can be just as romantic if not more...and isn't it true that only men know what men want and women know what women really need? I mean even the sexual drives of men and women are different and same-sex love can be a good thing in that respect.

Then there are those whom say that homosexuality erodes the family and marriages...but i'm sorry, many factors are undermining the state of families and marriages and homosexuality is at the BOTTOM of that list.....straight men having affairs, straight men visiting prostitutes, straight men beating their wives, straight men being too preoccupied with work and ignoring their wives needs, wives not caring enough, wives having affairs and lack of commitment amongst the younger generation are all important factors contributing towards the erosion of the family unit and marriages. So for those truely concerned Christians, these are the real problems that should be addressed, NOT homosexuality. Its all too easy to blame it all on homosexuality when the real problem lies elsewhere.

To end, I still remember clearly when i first came into contact with homosexuality and started researching into it...one of the first blogs i came across was by a Taiwanese gay couple.....i mean both of them were so cute and manly u wouldn't have known they were gay! (Thats one of the things i've learnt now also, many gay men simply don't fit into the sissy image that popular culture still seem to attach to them.....many are so freakin good lookin with such clothing style and nice skin it would make any girl jealous they were gay!!) They were holding hands and hugging each other and it opened up my eyes to a whole new world of possiblities given that i had no gay friends at that time and there were not much gay movies at the time also....i was taken abk...the sight of 2 gay men holding hands...it was really romantic and i was touched....but one of the things which really touched me was this series of photos showing one of the guys waiting for his boyfriend who was sitting for the all-important university entrance exam....i mean it was one of the most romantic things i've ever seen, even more romantic than birthday bashes for ur partner or a hug and kiss cos imagine going into one of the most important examinations of ur life knowing that the person u love most in this world is waiting outside for u...awwwww......that image has forever remained etched in my memory....

So let's all learn to live together and accept differences shall we?
Love transcends all, including gender.....cos love is a wonderful thing...be it Straight or Gay:)

7 comments:

typoprone said...

Haha...that gay homeparty would've been quite a sight. Anyway, looking forward to the next two in your little trilogy. :)

hcpen 彭皓全 said...

typoprone: you bet it was a shocking scene! Anyways, will post the next 2 instalments soon:):)

jw said...

I can accept gays because I must, they will not go away just because I do not accept them. I feel great pity for them tho.

What do you think of the Mardi Gras celebrations? I think Mardi Gras is a disgrace to humans. Ok, let me put it this way, whether it's gay sex or hetro sex, it definitely promotes immmoral sex and debauchery, in this case it happens to be the gay type. It really doesn't matter what your religion is, it just comes down to your own individual moral standards. Are there any gays who are against the Mardi Gras or immoral sex? Not many at all.

I feel pity for them that they can't experience the love and happiness derived from marrying a wife/husband, and raising your own family and if you are lucky enough, even have grandchildren. Life should be about family. That's the key component of society which is breaking us all down. We need good fathers and mothers.

On the whole scale of things, even if we were to leave religion alone, let's be honest. For the survival of the human species, gays and lesbians play no positive role. In fact it could be viewed as negative. If the earth was faced with a crisis and we had to handpick some people to start a new colony on a new planet, gays wouldn't be part of them. So let's not try to defend gays as being normal because that is simply not true.

I wonder how you define love? You really think the love between 2 men is going to be the same as the love between a woman and a man?

I would like to know if you have heard of a happily married gay couple who lasted for more than 30 years.

I think your defence for gays using "love" is quite weak, and I am not saying it is not possible, but in most cases you should replace that word with "lust" and "short lived love" or "like very much". Everlasting love? that's even hard for hetro couples. I would say it's near impossible for gay couples. I would be happy to be proven wrong however :) Just adding to the discussion, nothing personal :)

hcpen 彭皓全 said...

jw: Thanks for your thoughts on the issue. If i think u r who u r, i'm not that surprised at your views given that u r a devout christian.

First of all, i'll address each item u raised.
Mardi Gras....i think its a wonderful celebration of love showing that love is an incredible and lovely thing regardless of gender...u say it promotes 'immoral sex whether heterosexual or homosexual'....erm, r u refering to 'anal sex'? well i simply dun think the parade is promoting that cos altho i dun know much about the Mardi Gras, i HIGHLY DOUBT they carry placards saying 'lets all have wonderful anal sex ok?'

Its a parade and celebration of tolerance and compassion...(hhmmm...isn't it a Christian ethic to promote tolerance and Christian compassion, love thy neighbor???)NOT a parade for sex....i think u need to get that message...u may have misunderstood the message and meaning behind Mardi Gras...

Also how can gays be against 'immoral sex' when its the only way for homosexuals to 'do it'??it doesn't make sense...

Also your sense of pity is seriously misplaced....you must know that the marriage rate amongst straight people is VERY VERY low across the developed world and divorce rate is EXTREMELY HIGH now..in many countries...in summary, many STRAIGHT people aren't getting married ever in their entire lives now and many more are divorced....so do u feel pity that they'can't experience the joys of being married and having children'too??

Further, many young couples nowadays never have children even if married (like friend of mine she's married but not intending to have any children or a work collegue of mine whom has been married over many yrs now but she says she doesn't want any children)...do u also feel a 'sense of pity' for them too??
U seem to think its only gays whom won't have the joys of marriage and raising a family but u must realise the straight world has also changed from the 1950s view of the world u still seem to hold...marriage and raising a family is not 'enjoyed' by many straight people nowadays also so it really isn't relevant to the gay issue...

The thing u mentioned about needing good fathers and mothers i TOTALLY AGREE but as i mentioned in my post, its NOT and i repeat NOT homosexuality that is breaking down families but various other factors...if u still cannot see that, then, i really have nothing to say...

The thing about 'a world crisis and handpicking ppl for the new colony' arguement u wrote kinda seriously freaked me out jw...u sound scary and i'm abit taken abk u r THAT conservative and anti-gay...of cos we can leave out the gays,....and the handicapped, the straight ppl who have infertility problems, the overweight, the skinny, the single mothers, the prostitutes, the drunkards and the drug takers from that new colony shouldn't we? Cos they r also 'undesirables'...

About gay couple married for 30 yrs, well JW in case u haven't realised gay marriage was only possible a few years ago so aren't u asking for the impossible? Also conditions of intense discrimination by the larger society is also to blame...show me a happily married korean-black couple of over 30 years? (this is legally possible) Why is there so rare cases? Cos of discrimination...not cos they dun love each other...

Also ur lust argument is applicable to straight relationships also...many straight guys 'like very much' have a 'short-lived love' or 'lust' after women and nver really love them viewing them as sex objects, or in the case of short-lived love have an affair with another woman 10 years down the track AFTER they are married...

To end, i seriously think all ur arguements are deeply misplaced and misguided...almost everything u say is not exclusive to gays and can be applied and are indeed highly relevant to straight relationships too..so i don't see how they r relevant to homosexuality...eradicating homosexuality simply won't resolve the same problems in the straight world...but i do appreciate u adding ur own thoughts on the matter and as always respect your viewpoints on the issue:):):)

jw said...

hi hcpen,

I appreciate your reply. There is only so much understanding we can reach of each others thoughts in this kind of exchange. But let's just try our best anyway. Sorry for my bad writing.

About the Mardis Gras. I wasn't concerened so much as for the idea behind why they have it. But the resulting behaviour from the participants and other gay people who come to watch. Can you tell me why they don't dress up respectably and behave respectably? Have you actually been to one? If they just want to promote their acceptance into society and show their love, surely they can do this in a more respectable way. You missed my meaning of immoral sex completely, I am sorry that I did not make it clear, but I did not mean anal sex was immoral sex. I think you are reading too much into my words on your own, and perhaps because I have revealed to you that I am a christian (probably not as devout as you think), it seems to me that you are pigeon-holing me along with all the christians.

Immoral sex can of course happen in both the straight and gay world. That is why I said

"whether it's gay sex or hetro sex, it definitely promotes immmoral sex and debauchery".

If you have sex with someone "just for fun" eg. one night stand, I see that as immoral sex. I hope you agree. If they cheat on their lover, that is also immoral sex. If they have group sex, that is also immoral. etc. I hope you now understand what I meant. In no way did I ever say this was exclusive to gays. My statement was simply that Mardi Gras creates the environment which promotes and leads to the above said immoral sex. I would be just as critical of a parade organised by straight people if it ended up with the same results, again, that's why I said

"in this case it happens to be the gay type. It really doesn't matter what your religion is, it just comes down to your own individual moral standards"

your quote "isn't it a Christian ethic to promote tolerance and Christian compassion, love thy neighbor" just shows a misplaced understanding of the Chrisitan ethic. I know it's just so easy for people to say "but aren't christians supposed to be loving and understanding to all people?". I know my statements were quite strongly put, but nowhere did I say that they should be "eradicated" like you alluded to.

If you are trying to say to me that the Mardi Gras isn't sexually charged, then like I said above just look at the way they dress up and behave on the parades. If anyone misunderstood the message behind the Mardi Gras, then maybe it is the participants themselves?

I am very aware of the current trends in the straight world, in relation to marriages and giving birth and divorce rates etc. I do feel pity for those people who cannot enjoy the riches of life which is attained from having your own family. That includes members of the straight community, and all members of the gay community. This is the current trend of the current world we live in, and of course it isn't ideal and it isn't something we should just accept as reality. We should promote good healthy relationsips and becoming good fathers and mothers.

I totally agree with you that the straight world has changed since the 50s. I hope you can see the big picture and realise that just because the world trend is going a certain way, that this isn't somehow "normal" or the "way it should be". The view I hold that we should promote good family values, and less on the individual values, just because this is not in accordance with the current trend, does not mean I am wrong, or that I should just give in. I am saying this in reply to your

"straight world has also changed from the 1950s view of the world u still seem to hold..."

By this I hope you don't mean that you simply accept things for the way they are and that you are saying people not getting married and not having children and getting divorced is just normal, because this is the age we are living in.

your "i repeat NOT homosexuality that is breaking down families but various other factors..." I think that can be refuted with my "reading too much into my words on your own" because I never said homosexuality is breaking down familes.

I am sorry if my "world crisis and handpicking ppl for the new colony' arguement" freaked you out. I was afraid you might read that wrongly. I was intentionally making a objectively reasoned point in a very overt way. As crass and staight forward as the point may be, I think you ended up re-enforcing it further by bunching gays with the "handicapped, the straight ppl who have infertility problems, the overweight, the skinny, the single mothers, the prostitutes, the drunkards and the drug takers" on your own.

Ok I admit that I was expecting you to say "gay marriage was only possible a few years ago" so you are right, it would be asking for the impossible :). I guess my point was more that a love between a man and a woman is re-enforced and enhanced by creating a family of their own, love is overall about commitment and perserverance. I am saying that it is naturally harder for a gay couple to last the distance.

And again with the last point, I am not excluding the problem to just gays. I am totally aware that this is a problem for society as a whole. My point was that from my observations, the love between gay couple is not equal to the love between a man and a woman. Again it really depends on "how you define love".

Thanks for this exchange, and I hope that it provoked you into thinking more deeply about the issue. It certainly had that affect on me :)

jw said...

this article finally got me off my feet and i have done some research, and stumbled across the following from http://home.messiah.edu/~chase/h/articles/rogers.htm

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Some homosexuals comfort themselves with the thought that their feelings could be biologically programmed within, beyond choice or any personal responsibility. Gay activists claim that homosexuals are born gay, and that homosexuality should therefore be viewed as normal and natural. Yet, others with a homosexual orientation feel trapped by such logic, fearing they are hopeless victims of a genetic fate they want no part of.
Certainiy, people don't choose to develop homosexual feelings. But that does not mean one is born pre-programmed to be forever homosexual. We are not bio-robots. And we cannot ignore environmental influences and our reactions to such influences. Even if some types of homosexuality occur as a 'product' of nature, does that make it desirable or normal? Nature produces a host of biologically influenced conditions, such as depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, diabetes ... but we don't consider these `normal'just because they occur 'naturally'. So why is homosexuality given a different status? It is also worth noting that there are now some in the academic realm suggesting that adult sexual attraction to children could also be the product of an inherent biological influence. If proven true, would this mean we approve of sex between adults and children?

There are those who also believe that if homosexuality has a biological 'origin', then religious prohibitions against homosexual acts should be disregarded as irrelevant in the light of modern scientific discovery. Advocates of this thinking don't understand however, that when a religion declares certain human behaviours to be wrong, such as homosexual acts, it doesn't matter if there is a biological origin or not. In fact, such scientific discovery would only confirm what ancient religious writings already state: our present human condition is flawed, both biologically and psychologically. Religious writings make clear that humanity consequently struggles with many inherent and harmful weaknesses. Yet, it is also clear that We are intended to overcome and master our natural tendencies and weaknesses. rather than justifying and indulging them.

In spite of the many theories and even recent but in conclusive genetic and brain-related research, there is still no scientifically accepted evidence proving that homosexuals are "born gay". However, if science one day confirms a genetic or other hormonal bio-influence encouraging homosexual development, not all those involved in homosexuality would have this influence within them. And as has been clearly stated by genetic researchers, those with such a possible influence, would not be obligated to be homosexual. For example, some scientists believe that there are people born with bio-influences toward alcoholism, drug addiction, criminal behaviour and even divorce. But does that mean such persons are required to become, and therefore remain addicts and criminals? Biology may influence, but it doesn't automatically justify every possible resulting behaviour. Neither does it eliminate personal responsibility, will, conscience or our ability to choose whether we will control or be controlled by our weaknesses.
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According to the above there is no scientific evidence that one is "born gay". If you advocate that, it is your personal belief, and not a known fact.

I would be interested in any articles you might find to the contrary.

hcpen 彭皓全 said...

jw: I'll reply to your comments after i've read some of the links you provided and when i'm free k? Been flat out with work recently....thanks for ur thoughts as usual:)